Has there been any consideration to making AG required?

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Rick Abshier
KQ4Y

Yes, quite a bit and the idea has been soundly rejected.

eQSL has something to offer everybody, not just those who are interested in award chasing. In fact, our statistics show that 80% of our members have no interest in awards, they just love exchanging eQSL's. The exchange of eQSL's is the is the original idea on which eQSL.CC is based. Many people do indeed obtain the AG simply for the benefit of others who are interested in awards and we thank those who do that. However, we have no intention of alienating the majority of our membership and changing the very foundation of eQSL.CC for the benefit of those who want a second awards only site like LoTW.

Do we really need two LoTW's?

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73, Rich - W3ZJ

It is not a matter of "awards only". I think it would be common courtesy for every member when joining eQSL to identify himself properly. I am considering seriously rejecting all non-AG QSL's in future with the remark: Please AG....

The moderators response is contradictory as eQSL is promoting its own awards and only recognizes AG contacts for these awards.... Why not accept ALL eQSL's for the eQSL awards then????

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VK2GWK Henk Tobbe

I agree 100% with VK2GWK Henk.... I find W3ZJ Rich's response strange to say the least - it seems that non-AG is ok for proving contacts and exchanging cards, but not for eQSL awards.

Here's my take on the situation....

I really enjoy using eQSL, and collecting DXCC entities imparticular. My friends and I have a bit of friendly rivalry going to see who can climb highest in the eQSL DXCC table. I have at this moment in time 126 DXCC "AG". The frustrating thing is though that in my outbox I have in excess of 40 (yes 40 !) more DXCC available to me. These DXCC are eQSL members who are not AG. I have spent a considerable time contacting these people via a polite email, trying to encourage them to become AG. Most of the time I do not get a response. When I do it is usually "no" because they can't be bothered. Often they don't know what AG is; and sometimes they have forgotten they registered with eQSL in the first place!

The fundamental problem is that AG should have been enforced from day 1... but wasn't. What we are left with is a half-hearted system. I am with all the other users who say scrap AG. What is the worst thing that can happen? An unscrupulous person could cheat - sure - but who would they be cheating? I could set myself up as P5MSS but what would I gain? I'd only be cheating myself.

The other thing to remember is that one of the main ways of becoming AG is to upload an image of your licence. What security does this offer? If these unscrupulous people are around, I am sure they could create a fake licence without too much effort using Paintshop or whatever.

If the intention is to persevere with AG, at least make it compulsory after say a trial period of 3 months.

I know the tone of this posting is negative, I apologise for this; but I really do like eQSL, and find it frustrating as it is at the moment.

73
Mark Simpson, MM0MSS

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MM0MSS Mark Simpson

Hi Mark,

I have been a member of eQSL from the days when it was called On-Line QSL. In other words a member since before there was an eQSL as we know it. To my knowledge AG has always been enforced from the first day that the eDX100 award was introduced. Note that the eDX award does not require an AG.

You are forgetting one point and that is the primary purpose and goal of eQSL is the free exchange of electronic QSL cards. Awards are secondary and not everyone is interested in them. So, to make AG compulsory would be to change the basic premise on which eQSL was founded and turn it into an awards only site instead of an eQSL site.

I agree with you on the courtesy issue but how does one enforce courtesy?

Bye the way I have 117 AG confirmed countries out of 152 total confirmed, a difference of 35. So we are pretty much on a par with that. Is that frustrating? Not to me because everyone is playing by the same rules.

As far as forging a license image is concerned, it's probably possible but quite a few people have tried and failed. There are currently 130 rejected license images on file and countless more that were initially rejected and later approved when the person resubmitted a proper document.

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73, Rich - W3ZJ

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the informative reply.

I think the thing I am struggling to understand is what benefit does AG add to the 99.9% of honest law-abiding radio hams? If AG status was to be scrapped, what detrimental effect would it have on individual eQSL users? It's not as if there is a cash prize waiting for us. We all work toward our own individual eAwards...

I can only see benefits from scrapping AG:
(1) More people are likely to sign-up for eQSL if it is simple to do.
(2) Many DXpeditioners have uploaded their logs to eQSL as a courtesy. I have written to a lot of these asking them to upgrade to AG. The vast majority of them won't - they are put off by the red tape - they've done there bit as far as they are concerned - which I agree with.
(3) The vast majority (if not all) current eQSL users will benefit from additional DXCC (in your case an extra 35 !).
(4) Working new DXCC on the radio is difficult to start with; working new DXCC who are on eQSL even more so. We don't need the extra hurdle of AG status as well.

You mention that the primary reason for the existence of eQSL is the free exchange of electronic QSL cards. I agree 100% with this, and do not dispute it. Everyone is happy to receive the electronic confirmations, and may be print out a hard copy of the QSL cards. No one worries about AG for this purpose (and rightly so). Afterall, we are "matching" the record received with one that is in our own logbook - so we know it is legitimate. So why not the same with the awards? I can't see the difference between collecting eQSLcards and collecting eAwards.

Am I missing the point?

Regards & 73
Mark, MM0MSS

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MM0MSS Mark Simpson

I think your best point is that the vast majority of eQSL members ar honest and play by the rules because how could they be proud of an award they cheated to get.

But consider this scenario. I register an account as P5ABC, there is nothing to stop me from doing that. Then I go on the air with low power so that my signal is believable and contact several thousand stations who are perfectly willing to listen in the mud for a P5. Then I upload my log and confirm North Korea for all the stations I worked. You didn't cheat because you didn't know you worked a pirate. But I had a ball working the huge pileups with my little tuna tin rig and am laughing at the idea that I fooled a whole bunch of gullible hams.

The AG program prevents that from happening by verifying that the person who created the P5ABC account is indeed who he claims to be. eQSL wants it's award program to be valued. Could you value an award that had no checks and balances? I don't think I could.

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73, Rich - W3ZJ

Hi Rich,

Thanks once again for your speedy and informative reply.

I can see your logic....

But under the current system, P5ABC can register with eQSL and upload his log of pirate contacts. All the eQSL users who collect eQSL cards (ie, the main purpose of eQSL) will now have a pirated eQSL card in their collection. This is as bad for those collectors as it is for me having it count for my eAward.

So going back to my original point; if you intend to persevere with AG then make it compulsory.

Without meaning to sound flippent or dis-respectful please allow me to para-phrase you.... "Could you value eQSL cards that had no checks and balances? I don't think I could"....

Regards,
Mark, MM0MSS

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MM0MSS Mark Simpson

>But under the current system, P5ABC can register with eQSL and upload his log of pirate
> contacts. All the eQSL users who collect eQSL cards (ie, the main purpose of eQSL) will
> now have a pirated eQSL card in their collection. This is as bad for those collectors as it is
> for me having it count for my eAward.

The difference is that eQSL did not approve the bogus card. On the other hand your award certificate is approved by an eQSL awards manager and is electronically signed by Dave Morris. That's where the integrity of eQSL awards is on the line. eQSL can't control the cards people send but it can control the award certificates it issues. I might add with a considerable investment of time by volunteer awards managers who manually check every QSO on every award application.

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73, Rich - W3ZJ

We seem to have gone full circle with this one Rich. Your comment says it better than I could..... eQSL can't control the cards people send but it can control the award certificates it issues.

If AG was made compulsory, then eQSL could control the cards people send.

I think at the end of the day we will have to agree to dis-agree!

Enough of me moaning. I don't mean to be negative; and I apologise for taking eQSL to task over this one... (it is only because I feel passionate about eQSL that I have).... Nothing personal you understand. I do appreciate all the hard work that you guys put into eQSL.

All the best,
Mark, MM0MSS

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MM0MSS Mark Simpson

Both of you have made points worth considering. However, when people continue to send out eQSLs and only get a 15% return rate, something is wrong. I think eQSL is great but I think everyone should start from the same point. Either we are legal amateur operators and can provide the verification via a license and become AG or we do away with AG altogether. I prefer the first. All legal amateur radio operators have a license. If they do not, they are not legal. eQSL now has two standards; one for AG and awards and one for non-AG who seem to be able to get awards anyway off of the people who are AG. Make one standard for everyone and live with the standard. Obtaining AG status is not that difficult if you have a license and can scan it into the computer. Get someone to help you do it if you can not figure out how to do it. Common sense and courtesy should dictate to all amateur radio operators to obatin AG status and either send an eQSL after every QSO or respond to every eQSL in your inbox. If a person does not use their account and check their inbox in a certain amount of time, eQSL should remove them from the ranks. I do not know anything about LoTW and do not want to know about it. I am happy with eQSL but would be happier if we were all following the same standards. I am too old and sick to worry or care about awards. I was actually surprised to discover one day that I was eligible for an eAward. I selected the button and later the system said that I had received the award. I just get on the radio to keep my mind alert and exercise the brain. eQSL has been a part of that exercise and will continue to be a part of it. However, it is frustrating to see so many unreturned eQSLs. Some of the responses I have received ranged from smart remarks to thanks for informing because I did not know about it. Just because eQSL started one way does not mean it has to continue to run that way. I know there have been improvements in eQSL since I have been a member. Everything changes and hopefully for the better. Don't set yourself or eQSL in cement, Rich. It can change and should change for the better. Get all of the eQSL users on the same standards. It should not be that hard to do and it does not have to be a clone of something else either.

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NT3W Kenneth W. Wright

To Rich W3ZJ:
You said:
' I have been a member of eQSL from the days when it was called On-Line QSL. In other words a member since before there was an eQSL as we know it. To my knowledge AG has always been enforced from the first day that the eDX100 award was introduced. Note that the eDX award does not require an AG.'
However, eDX does require AG status. otherwise, I would have gotten it sooner than I did.

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N1ORK Orest 'Andy' Zajac

Yes, I stand corrected on that.

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73, Rich - W3ZJ

I am not really worried by the poor "return" on eQSL. Not much worse or better than the paper QSL rate or LotW. I just upload all contacts made and do not expect anything in return - so each card I get is a bonus

As I have written before on this forum: either all members of eQSL identify themselves properly so that everybody is AG or we do away with the AG alltogether. In that perspective: what guarantee do you have that the station you worked with was genuine when you receive a paper QSL in the mail or via the bureau. In the distant past you could consider it unlikely that a fake station would go through all the trouble and expense to have QSL cards printed. Nowadays with computers and high quality desk top publishing facilities a paper card is no guarantee whatsoever. And what guarantee does eQSL have that the scanned license they get sent by email is genuine...?? Unless you see the original or a certified copy you cannot be sure.

The LotW verification process is somewhat better - not full proof - but fits the "special" status of the DXCC awards where original cards are verified and the card checkers are pretty much aware of "fakes" and "cheats". For LotW the ARRL awards are the main objective - exchange of QSL comes secondary.

The objective for eQSL is different: to offer an electronic QSL exchange service. The awards are secundary. Therefor I suggest that eQSL reconsiders its position. Do away with the AG or AG for everyone.... no "double standards".

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VK2GWK Henk Tobbe

I feel that in order to GET an eQSL award, you SHOULD be a member, but, you should also be allowed to get "credit" for eQSL's received from NON-AG members too.

As was stated earlier, some DXpeditions will upload their log as a courtesy, but won't take the time to get AG certified. We're lucky if they register in the first place. So, that "rare" country, or island I'm looking for is practically worthless as far as getting credit for it, except for the fact I can say I did work them...and if I have no proof that I worked them, then I could say I did anyway. (which I wouldn't, just mentioned to make a point)

Its hard enough to get someone to acknowledge the eQSL in the FIRST place, and then, to have them reguster so they will be valid is even harder.

What I would like to see is this...

1.) I am a member, I am AG certified, and I am eligable for eAWARDS. I submit my logs, and get a 35% return on my QSO's. (if I'm lucky), I get credit for those QSO that were returned regardless whether they were from an AG, or NON-AG member. But, the NON-AG member will NOT get award credit for our QSO, or get an eQSL back unless they also register. Once they register, they will get award credit for the QSO, and then my eQSL will be released to them.

2.) AG members will be able to get award credit, AND print out a hard copy of the eQSL card. NON-AG members won't get award credit, and won't have the ability to print out the card, or even view it until they subscribe. Once they do, the cards are released to them. They should be able to view the QSO's in list form and, but not have the option to view or print.

3.) Or let them "view the cards, but have a "watermark" of some sort so it will be on the card if they print it, and if, and when they register, the watermark goes away.

Maybe give the NON-AG members more of an "incentive" to join. And give AG members an incentive to donate to keep this going.

Just my .02 (maybe not worth that much)

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NS5B Steve Hutchinson

As this discussion originated in November of 2005 and was last commented on (before me) in May of 2007, either we are late to the dance or the discussion continues...

As a general concept, I believe that the AG should continue to be a requirement for awards. I think that it is easy enough to get, although it may take some time (in my case, two weeks after I joined eQSL due to priorities and procrastination).

People register with eQSL for one reason: to exchange QSL cards electronically. It is a two step process: 1. Sign up 2. Verify your identity. Even though you can contribute your logs immediately after registering, verification of authenticity is critical for the integrity of the program.

I think the holding pen is a great idea... feel free to upload all the QSOs you'd like from day one. They will be matched against the other logs in the system. Each time you log in a big red number will be prominently displayed indicating the amout of confirmations you have pending - both AG and non-AG, but no indicator as to who the confirmed stations are. When you get your AG the curtain is pulled, so to speak, and the confirmations come flooding into your in-box.

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KB4KBS Scott Straw

VK2GWK is absolutely right... The only way us AG-members can "force" non-AG members to obtain AG status is to REJECT their cards... with the Statement "please Guarantee your Authenticity and resubmit"

and I will apply that as of today...

W1CDX, Steve Hunt

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W1CDX Steven R Hunt

Your points are well taken. eQSL is constantly striving to get more users Authenticity Guaranteed and the percentage has been slowly improving. At this time a little over 20% of members are AG. I think one can pretty safely assume that the other 80% are not interested in awards and maybe don't realize how much it means to those of us who are interested in awards. Everyone can help to educate the others by sending a courteous email to non AG members.

Rejecting eQSL's from non AG members is self destructive because as members do obtain the Authenticity Guarantee you will not receive the benefit of it for QSO's you have rejected.

So do you think that eQSL should blow off 80% of it's membership to make 20% happier? I'm no business expert but that doesn't sound like a very good business plan to me.

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73, Rich - W3ZJ

As a follow up to my post yesterday, the following is a description of actual events that have occurred in the past two days:

This morning I was greeted by a new eQSL in my Inbox from VP8SGK (for Sout Georgia Island). This would have been number 149 for my eDX100 but alas he was not AG. So, I send him a note worded approximately as follows:

"Dear VP8GSK,
Thank you very much for your eQSL from South Georgia Island. This is a new country for my for my eDX100 award. Unfortunately, you are not currently Authenticity Guaranteed and therefore your cards do not count toward eAwards. I, and I am sure many others, would greatly appreciate it if you would visit the Authenticity Guarantee section by clicking the AG Icon near the top of the right hand column on the main page after you log on and apply for the Authenticity Guarantee. Thanks again for your card.

73, Rich - W3ZJ"

Approximately two hours later I received a response from Mike saying that he had obtained the AG via LoTW. I checked my awards listing and sure enough, there was number 149 from South Georgia Island. I know that he just uploaded a log containing several thousand QSO's. Did you receive a card from him and reject it because he wasn't AG? Too bad, with a little patience and courtesy you could have had a new one today.

73, Rich - W3ZJ

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73, Rich - W3ZJ

My reason for not applying for AG status is that only the UK radio authorities are entitled to request to see my licence, so I will only provide sight of it to a properly authorised person who has shown me proof of their authority.

I don't have to show it to anyone else and I don't ask anyone else to show me their licence either before I work them, after I work them or if I send or receive a QSL card, either an electronic one or a paper one.

If AG became mandatory, I would just not use eQSL, simple as that.

Is there a way to stop the 'You are not AG' messages being sent, or automatically reply that I'm not interested in becoming AG, please?

Dave (G0DJA)

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G0DJA David Ackrill